Recently, Final Weapon had the opportunity to sit down with renowned composers Kaveh Cohen and Michael Nielsen. The duo has composed together for over twenty years, with plenty of video game titles such as Splinter Cell: Conviction, Battleship, and, most recently, Forza Motorsport (2023).
We hope you enjoy this interview, and please do be sure to check out both Kaveh and Micahel’s work at the links below!
First, thank you for taking the time to meet with us today. Could you please introduce yourselves to our audience with a little about your background?
Kaveh Cohen: Sure! Hey, everyone! My name is Kaveh Cohen, and I’m a composer based in LA along with my brother-in-arms there, Michael Nielsen. I have a mostly scoring background. I grew up in England and started my musical journey at a pretty young age. It was the movie E.T. that kickstarted my love of film music. And it was around that same age, around 7 or 8 years old, that I sort of discovered I was, you know, into composing and writing my own little doodles and that kind of thing.
Around the same time, growing up in England, there was a lot of synth-pop. So I kind of grew up listening to Depeche Mode, Erasure, Yazz, Kraftwerk, and all sorts of electronic things. So, I think that time really formed my love of both what I would say traditional film, music, TV music, and then just my love of electronics. So, that’s when it all started for me. A few years later, my family and I moved to L.A., and that journey sort of continued through high school, through music school, and then my obligatory post-music school job. This is when you work at the Guitar Center, which is actually where Michael and I met working behind the counter. It seems like 150 years ago now.
I started my career really in the States, like, as a ghostwriter and as an additional writer. And then, as I started getting work, I really cut my teeth in documentary scoring and animation scoring. So that’s kind of where a lot of my scoring background comes from. It wasn’t until about 2007 that the first video game came along, and that was Splinter Cell Conviction, which was obviously a huge game. It was a very big project to land as your first gig. So, that’s sort of my general background and my first foray into video game scoring.
Michael Nielsen: I’m a guitarist at heart. That’s where my love is and probably comes from growing up through the 80s when it was such an important instrument there. I come really from the sort of pop and rock production, writing, and engineering side of things, and I’ve always loved soundtracks from the films, you know, obviously all the sci-fi stuff, Raiders of the Lost Ark, and all the animated stuff. And so, as I got through college, I wanted to continue that pop production and rock production. So I had a couple production companies and we did okay, but it was always like a big artist that already had their Grammy or already had their hit. We always got the next one that was not the hit and was not the Grammy. It was like they already had their time, and we were always just one step too late.
So, I started writing music for licensing, which ended with me having a lot of songs licensed in films. So that ended up being kind of like a nice home for me, and it was actually when Kaveh and I started working together. He was like, “So are you going to write for orchestra, too?” And I was like, yes! And at the time, that was just like, all right, time to dive in. I hadn’t really done that before, but, you know, I love doing that. And now we’ve been doing this for 20 years.
We’re kind of all over the map in terms of styles. We compliment each other greatly because we come into the same place from different doors essentially. And I think we’ve rubbed off on each other really well. From one on the sort of mixing side and the sort of rock side and then the composing side and the real soundtrack stuff. So now when we write, we don’t sit next to each other at the piano because we’ve been doing it for so long. But there’s a lot of crossover. I sometimes go, “Oh man, I wrote that! That was really good.” And it turns out that was something that he wrote.
Cohen: That happens to me too! [laughs]
Final Weapon: Well, I guess after working together for 20 years, at some point things naturally start to blend together.
Nielsen: I have a little Kaveh on my shoulder sometimes. Is that good, is that really good, or is it you’re trying to eat dinner and go home? [laughs]
So, the latest project you both released was Forza Motorsport, which came out last month. Obviously, the Forza brand is pretty large. The racing genre as a whole is an interesting genre to compose for in the video game world, as it requires some areas of thought you don’t need elsewhere. With you both working on the series since Forza Motorsport 6, what was your approach to composing for this title, and how did you look to build upon your previous scores?
Cohen: Obviously with any project you work on, whether it’s a game, film, TV, you know, everything is such a collaborative effort with the, in this case, the video game makers and, the audio director of the project. So, I think Turn Ten really had a very specific thing in mind with every single one of these games.
Forza 6 was generally a hybrid score, as the new one is. It was just a little bit different version of a hybrid score. So, in six, we had an orchestra throughout, but some of it was orchestra and electronics. Some of it was sort of orchestra with rock elements. Some of it was an orchestra with industrial elements. There was a percussive component to it. Although the orchestra is sort of thematically sat over the whole thing, the underpinnings kind of varied quite a bit. With Forza 7, they took a hard left turn, which kind of left me as a deer in headlights because, as Mike mentioned earlier, he came up as a guitar player in the guitar world in the 80s listening to Whitesnake and like, all this stuff. And so they come out at us for number seven, and they go, “Hey, you know, this whole scoring orchestra business? Yeah, throw that out the window. We’re going to do a vintage rock score.” And so Mike’s super excited. I’m panicked under the table, sweating because that’s not what I do. I don’t know anything about that kind of thing. But it was a really interesting learning experience, too. I mean, the way we approached the score was very different in the sense that they wanted instrumental songs. So, how do you make a vintage rock-oriented, 3.5-minute song interesting without lyrics or vocals? So that was an exercise in itself.
It was an amazing experience because we got to work with some of the most legendary Who’s Who players, engineers, and mastering engineers in the rock world. So that was pretty amazing. And then fast forward to the new one. And again, we’re back sort of where we were with Forza 6 in that it was a hybrid score. But it was a lot more modern. A lot more modern, a lot more minimal in many ways. I don’t think the score is as busy as number six, and maybe even some of the expansions were. The more intense music is far more minimal. I think the fans of the Forza franchise music, really resonate with the more menu-driven, the more what I deem elegant music. This is the more low-key atmosphere and more serene, lush areas of the game. Fortunately, there was a lot of that on this new one. So, you know, we were able to record a live orchestra for it. But from an underpinning perspective, I feel like the hybrid component is just a lot more modern, a lot more singular in direction, and maybe not as busy as Forza 6 was overall.
Nielsen: Yeah, I think part of that for all of the Forza titles is because it’s a racing game, you’re trying to find where you can pull emotion or where can you inject additional emotion into a racing game. Obviously, it’s a pretty singular emotion once the race begins. So I think a lot of the focus in this Forza is getting you to that point. It’s trying to create this emotional bed for you to pull you into the game so it’s as engaging as once that race starts. And Kaveh said, it was intentional to to be much more minimal in this approach, but I think it definitely has more of the classic Forza tonality overall to it, that sort of austere. I mean, we’re talking about the highest of technology in cars and stuff. So I think that’s part of what I consider the Forza thing, that elegance, is connecting that kind of music with that kind of technology, alongside the visuals and that experience.
Cohen: It is worth mentioning, too, that it was decided to omit music from the actual races, which wasn’t the case before. I mean, the simple reality is that when you’re racing, you’re focused on your driving, the driver experience, and you don’t need music pounding you in the head, along with wheels screeching, crashing into walls and other cars, and things like that.
So I think what it does is the build-up to the races and then the coming down from the race, the cooldown periods. If anything, they probably feel a little bit more focused musically. You know what I mean? Because we’re sort of leading you to the race and then bringing you back out of the race. And so there’s a lot more resonance in those moments with the score, as opposed to it just continuing through the races as well.
FW: I loved what Michael touched on with the emotion, tying it to that elegance where you can really lead the player into the race. You can really get them to feel something, leading them into it like that. And I think that you guys did an excellent job with the score, especially with that aspect.
I wanted to touch on two tracks I had as favorites from Forza Motorsport. These are Brotherhood and Accelerate. As you both said earlier, this score was a little more elegant and low-key, which I think both incorporated some electronic elements. So, I wanted to ask what were your favorite tracks to work on with the game out of the two dozen tracks?
Cohen: It’s also worth mentioning that plenty of music didn’t make it to the album. The game has been in development for so long that we spend a good amount of time exploring different sounds. Ultimately, the stuff that was finished and made it into the game doesn’t make it into the album since we want to create a nice listening experience for the listeners. Mike, do you want to start with your favorites?
Nielsen: I was actually just scanning through the soundtrack! Truth be told, it wasn’t called ‘Brotherhood” for the longest time. It was called something like Race 2A-_b because there is a massive amount of organization that goes into trying to create a soundtrack for a game that is three years into development.
We put a lot into creating what is going to be the “theme” of the game. In Forza Motorsport, Kaveh wrote this beautiful one called “Forza Motorsport 2023”. It just has a really beautiful harmonic content and, to me, speaks to that element of elegance and technology we’ve talked about. We then picked out bits of that to use throughout the score to help create a cohesive moment.
I really like “Best of the Best”. That’s a track that I think I did! It’s got a lot of what I like – blending synths, live orchestra, guitars, and live bass & distortion. That’s always a blast for me to do.
Cohen: That is yours! [laughs]
I think my favorite of Michael’s is “Driven”. It’s super badass; I love that cue. My personal favorite is the main theme, “Forza Motorsport 2023”. It has a companion cue that I believe is called “Represent” on the album. They were both written around the same time, with “Represent” being a derivative of the main one. And so, I’m really fond of those pieces. I really enjoy writing in that vein, and I think, overall, those are my favorite types of cues to write.
You both have worked together for many years now across numerous projects. How has composing together grown you individually and collectively, and what’s your creative approach to crafting these scores?
Nielsen: I think we know each other’s strengths well enough that when we’re looking to establish a starting point, one of us can take the lead. With Forza Motorsport, that was thinking about what this game would sound like thematically. There’s no ego of “you do this” or “you do that” between us. I know what we’ll come up with will be fantastic, so I’m happy to start wherever we need to. At that point, for me, there is a little bit of a youthful “let me see if I can impress my friend”. It starts there. We’ve worked with the Music Supervisors and Music Director at Turn Ten for years, so coming in, I thought of different ways that I could impress them and get that energetic email back saying, “Wow, that’s amazing!”.
Cohen: If you take a step back and look at Michael and my career together over the years, this is our 10th game together. We have worked on so many different things. We co-own a company called Ninja Tracks that has had a long presence in film, media, and video game advertising. So, all the movie trailers and TV spots you see. We’ve had the great privilege of working on custom music for over 22 years now.
Michael mentioned earlier the idea of rubbing off on each other. I think it’s so much more than that. He has been the single most influential person musically for me. Michael is exceptional at everything he does, which is daunting for me sometimes. But I think that’s what has been so cool. We both have a huge love for gear, plugins, engineering, and music tech in general. We’ve shared that for so long, so I feel like every year, we’re constantly pushing and finding new ways to do and reinvent things. Musically, it has been like that as well. We’ve been really supportive and instrumental in each other’s growth over the years, thanks to the opportunity to work on so much. It’s been really interesting, as sometimes we’ll be more in his element with a project or vice versa. We’ve even had times where we both have no idea what’s going on and think, “Why did we say yes?”
It’s been an incredible journey, and I personally attribute a lot of my growth and learning to working with Michael over these many years. As far as our creative approach, it’s not about ego or anything. We know what we’re great at, and we know where our limitations lie. When we get a project, we come at it and split it up. “What do you want to do this time?” or “These cues are more up your alley.” It’s a pedestrian approach. Back in the day, we’d get a project and sit in front of the piano and everything. If I happened to be the one in the chair at the time, I’d take the lead, and if Mike were, he would. The other person would end up asleep half an hour later in the back. [laughs]
We’d sit there and talk with each other when working, like, “Oh, that was a cool sound! Go back to that!”. Now, we don’t work that way anywhere. We divvy the work up and get on with it to get feedback before it goes to the client.
That’s interesting to hear how your process has evolved over time. How has video game music and scoring evolved over the last ten years, and where do you think it’s headed?
Cohen: What I would say is I think video game music has come a long way. It’s had a huge fandom for decades, and I think it’s always been a huge contributor as far as quality, innovation, and creativity in the general music and scoring scene. I think over the last several years, it has gotten a lot more prolific and prominent, and now you’re seeing big A-List film composers work on games. I think one of the things that has happened overall in all areas of scoring is that there is a home now for all types of scores. Back in the ’60s, you had moved to Jazz scores, and then later, John Williams brought the full orchestra back. Towards the 2000s, you entered what we now call hybrid scores. I think all of these niches have been carved out, which has led to all types of scores now, whether they’re super minimal electronic scores like X Machina or large-scale orchestras like John Powell and John Williams. And I think it’s the same for video games; there is all kinds of music out there from all kinds of people. It seems, looking at film and TV in particular, that there are a lot more people working on a lot more content. Sometimes, that is a double-edged sword, but on the whole, there is a wealth of good music out there in all genres.
It does feel like there is more music than ever, which leads me to our next point. What’s the biggest challenge faced by composers today within the industry?
Cohen: I have to say saturation, to be honest with you. I think the music industry has always been saturated with all avenues of music. It’s a difficult thing to pursue; there is no way to sugarcoat that. There isn’t a set linear path like you’ll see in plenty of other professions. A lot of it is based on components you don’t have control over, so it’s not an easy path to go.
I think from what we’ve seen, there is a huge number of people trying to do this work now. You’ve got industries like the video game industry that have exploded over the years. And on the trailer side, we can speak directly on that. We get dozens of submissions a month from composers all around the world submitting their work. They’re already working in various avenues, like Pop artists or Film and TV. Everyone is trying to get into everything, and there is a lot of everyone already there on the rosters. Agencies are more full than ever. So, I really do think it’s saturation. That is a huge component in making and sustaining a career in music nowadays.
Nielsen: That’s pretty much what I was going to say. I think it goes with everything, even a TV Show, to get someone’s attention. You have to consider that viewers have billions of things to watch, whether it be a podcast, YouTube video, or whatever. It’s hard to cut through the noise.
Final Weapon: Especially with all these formats, it is essential that the score can grab the attention of the viewer. A meaningful score can pull someone into a series and retain them, which is essential for seasonal TV series or things of that nature.
Nielsen: For sure.
Let’s end it off with a fun question. If you both could compose for any game series or game to work on next, what would it be?
Nielsen: I have two answers. I am addicted to Polytopia, a phone game. It’s got tiny 8-bit music, and I would love to do something like that! It really would be so fun. But I think that would be a nice place to visit.
What I would love to do is Diablo or something like that. You’ve got vast land to walk through where you could open up. There’s also a character you’re writing for as you go through.
Cohen: I would say a Medal of Honor or Call of Duty if there was a new WW2 game. I have a deep love of Americana and all things Copland and Barber. I would love to write my Saving Private Ryan score. Whether it be a video game, TV series, or film, it would be my wish to write a lush Americana score.
That will do it for this interview! We want to thank both Kaveh and Micahel for their time. Below, you can check out links to each of their work and Twitter pages.
Kaveh Cohen – Twitter | Website
